Sarah is on to something when she said that second generation immigrants tend to go "super-woke", although I'd refine the claim to be specifically about the South and East Asian females. The American born daughters of Asian immigrants are highly susceptible to victimhood narratives. I think it has something to do with the fact that they have been exposed to genuine patriarchies (the old culture).
But they don't want to attack their in-group, and so instead they project their aggrievement onto American culture and look for evidence of patriarchy here. And because they tend to be highly educated, they are good at coming up with rationalizations for feeling oppressed. They often turn bitter towards the supposed American patriarchy and sometimes even become boldly misandrist.
What's frustrating about it is that they completely ignore the fact that they are some of the most privileged people in the country. Most of them are doctors, scientists, lawyers, or in mid-to-upper management in the corporate world. I don't understand how they manage to convince themselves that they are oppressed while simultaneously securing mountains of educations, wealth, and power. I guess women really can do it all :)
Gould's piece is painfully self-pitying and self absorbed, and I agree with Sarah that I don't really get what value we're supposed to be getting out of reading it, but this is not a new take.
What I find interesting (in a sad way) is that I don't think her husband is all that unique. There is an epidemic of men willing to put up with any amount of shittiness from their wives/partners. I think that if more men actually had any self respect and didn't put up with this then the actual behavior would be greatly reduced.
I know that her husband is a public intellectual as well and we can make excuses like "he does the same thing with his memoir," but again I don't think that his situation is as unique as he is.
I think it has become such a large male problem to be devoid of any self respect as to put up with this that it has become a female problem that they don't have any available partners who can help counterbalance them when they get just a little bit crazy, much less Gould level batshit crazy.
With Sarah on the essay, it's not enough to just be winkingly "aware" that you are behaving badly, there's something odd about our current zeitgest that seems to see awareness as absolution. "Ethical" self-absorption
I read Gould's essay b/c of the podcast. I know it's not for everyone, but I liked it. There seems to be a lot of interest in writers' marriages these days. In addition to the books Gould mentions, there's also the movie Anatomy of a Fall (a pretty good movie nominated for an Academy Award).
I like the objective style of the beginning of the essay (just reporting the facts w/o evaluation). Towards the end, when talking about how things get better, she does slip into unconvincing self-justification (especially when talking about the affair & what she and her husband need to apologize about).
Yes! I didn't know the "The Coddling" called it out, but I was long ago struck by the fact that the extreme left, in the form of DEI/CRT/AntiRacism, is pushing essentially anti-Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Almost every mode of distorted thinking CBT works to help people recognize that are a) unreasonable and b) making them miserable are modes encouraged by "Wokeness." It's such a one-to-one correlation that I find it hard to believe it isn't more than just an indulgence of followers' worst instincts, but a deliberate attempt to spread the more common forms of mental illness (depression, anxiety, loneliness, etc.). And also to exacerbate, not mitigate, the effects of many personality disorders.
1. I don't know the how the Coddling filmmakers chose the student interviewees but I suspect that Meghan is correct in speculating that American students "of color" wanted nothing to do with the project so international students were then chosen. It would be great if you could interview the filmmakers.
2. As to whether Emily Gould's husband "knew what he was getting into" - I have one piece of anecdata about a person in my family who didn't exhibit signs of mental illness until well into their 40's (paranoid delusion disorder).
3. On Sam Harris' reluctance to speak about trans issues. I sensed a bit of "trans fatigue" in Sam's voice and commentary. To be fair, I have severe trans fatigue so it's very possible that I'm projecting my own feelings onto a stranger I heard on a podcast. But Sam did ask a pertinent question the answer to which seems to be elusive: how did a problem that affects 1% of the American population start sucking up so much oxygen from the heterodox intellectual room? I don't want to minimize the pain and suffering of people with gender dysphoria and their families - it's very real for therm. But if a Martian landed here and spent a month immersed in online spaces occupied by very intelligent people, the Martian would swear that 25-30 percent of the population was trans. There's got to be a more productive use of all this brain power.
Sorry for going off-topic but there''s no open thread for us folks with XY chromosomes.
I would love to hear your thoughts on American Fiction, the new(ish) movie satirizing the publishing industry and its DEI obsession. I'm particularly interested in the accuracy of the caricature of earnest white liberal publishing execs.
I read the Gould piece just once last week and then listened to too much commentary on it...and I may be off base because I haven't read much of her other work.
But maybe she's actually admitting that her marriage problems are what she's introduced specifically as the female partner? That we live in a time where it's easily justifiable to leave a man because he's useless or cruel. She noted all the books, memoirs, etc she was reading about divorce.
In this case she was the shitty and ultimately couldn't justify herself. It's not her husband's fault she couldn't be more ambitious. She put herself in that avenue and then justified her career sidelining because she had to mother. But also admitted to just being lazy.
I dunno, I just finished Perfect Madness which somehow came out almost 20 years ago. Women have been justifying men not doing comparatively enough when it comes to home and kids for a long time, but again Gould admits she wouldn't let him do certain things or resented his involvement. He could argue with her, sure, but she chose to put herself in the submissive position, not "patriarchy."
Women can stand equivalent to their male spouses, but it's a lot of work. I have to wonder if Gould is pointing to that an acknowledgement of that.
I mean, otherwise the essay wasn't an acknowledgement of much of anything!
I was put off by Emily Gould's piece. While it may seem "brave" to share this piece with the general public, it seems more like a lack of courage to internalize and reflect on her struggles with money, drink, bipolar disease, and marriage, etc. and instead write a piece that seems embarrassing. I feel sad for her because she seems so self-absorbed, and she can't seem to manage her ego and... there is a child involved. It seems she needs good friends or family members to tell her to get her shit together-- and to consider divorce in her apparent emotional state just seems ill advised. And the admission that she does not want to work hard....OK, but then what are you going to do- depend on husband to work, who you then resent because he works?? I hope she finds something meaningful in her life that takes focus off herself, and she gets the mood stabilizers she needs for her bipolar.
1. I read The Cut article after listening to the podcast (very entertaining) and liked the essay much more than I expected. I hadn’t realized it was like a long-form book review about memoirs on divorce with the author’s own weird experience tied in.
2. What I found most disturbing was the narrator’s financial irresponsibility. She has apparently never had a regular income but never opens a bill. Hmmm. And yet in the end they will have a three bedroom apartment in Brooklyn and I doubt they live next to JFK.
3. Agree with Meghan that when literature tells the truth it’s not necessarily beautiful. Not all narrators or main characters are appealing. “Tropic of Cancer” and “Madame Bovary” come to mind.
Not only is there a tradition of this kind of essay, it seems to be having another moment now. Leslie Jamison just published, "The birth of my daughter. The death of my marriage." I agree with Sarah. It starts to feel like kale chips. Am I wrong to wish for some acquired worldliness and wisdom after reading all this? So Emily doesn't blame the patriarchy. Nor should she. And yes, writers should not marry writers! Nora Ephron's book was much better because of the perspective she'd gained, (and her incredible sense of humor), as Meghan noted.
Sarah is on to something when she said that second generation immigrants tend to go "super-woke", although I'd refine the claim to be specifically about the South and East Asian females. The American born daughters of Asian immigrants are highly susceptible to victimhood narratives. I think it has something to do with the fact that they have been exposed to genuine patriarchies (the old culture).
But they don't want to attack their in-group, and so instead they project their aggrievement onto American culture and look for evidence of patriarchy here. And because they tend to be highly educated, they are good at coming up with rationalizations for feeling oppressed. They often turn bitter towards the supposed American patriarchy and sometimes even become boldly misandrist.
What's frustrating about it is that they completely ignore the fact that they are some of the most privileged people in the country. Most of them are doctors, scientists, lawyers, or in mid-to-upper management in the corporate world. I don't understand how they manage to convince themselves that they are oppressed while simultaneously securing mountains of educations, wealth, and power. I guess women really can do it all :)
Gould's piece is painfully self-pitying and self absorbed, and I agree with Sarah that I don't really get what value we're supposed to be getting out of reading it, but this is not a new take.
What I find interesting (in a sad way) is that I don't think her husband is all that unique. There is an epidemic of men willing to put up with any amount of shittiness from their wives/partners. I think that if more men actually had any self respect and didn't put up with this then the actual behavior would be greatly reduced.
I know that her husband is a public intellectual as well and we can make excuses like "he does the same thing with his memoir," but again I don't think that his situation is as unique as he is.
I think it has become such a large male problem to be devoid of any self respect as to put up with this that it has become a female problem that they don't have any available partners who can help counterbalance them when they get just a little bit crazy, much less Gould level batshit crazy.
you guys have the best episode titles.
With Sarah on the essay, it's not enough to just be winkingly "aware" that you are behaving badly, there's something odd about our current zeitgest that seems to see awareness as absolution. "Ethical" self-absorption
I read Gould's essay b/c of the podcast. I know it's not for everyone, but I liked it. There seems to be a lot of interest in writers' marriages these days. In addition to the books Gould mentions, there's also the movie Anatomy of a Fall (a pretty good movie nominated for an Academy Award).
I like the objective style of the beginning of the essay (just reporting the facts w/o evaluation). Towards the end, when talking about how things get better, she does slip into unconvincing self-justification (especially when talking about the affair & what she and her husband need to apologize about).
Yes! I didn't know the "The Coddling" called it out, but I was long ago struck by the fact that the extreme left, in the form of DEI/CRT/AntiRacism, is pushing essentially anti-Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Almost every mode of distorted thinking CBT works to help people recognize that are a) unreasonable and b) making them miserable are modes encouraged by "Wokeness." It's such a one-to-one correlation that I find it hard to believe it isn't more than just an indulgence of followers' worst instincts, but a deliberate attempt to spread the more common forms of mental illness (depression, anxiety, loneliness, etc.). And also to exacerbate, not mitigate, the effects of many personality disorders.
Three random thoughts:
1. I don't know the how the Coddling filmmakers chose the student interviewees but I suspect that Meghan is correct in speculating that American students "of color" wanted nothing to do with the project so international students were then chosen. It would be great if you could interview the filmmakers.
2. As to whether Emily Gould's husband "knew what he was getting into" - I have one piece of anecdata about a person in my family who didn't exhibit signs of mental illness until well into their 40's (paranoid delusion disorder).
3. On Sam Harris' reluctance to speak about trans issues. I sensed a bit of "trans fatigue" in Sam's voice and commentary. To be fair, I have severe trans fatigue so it's very possible that I'm projecting my own feelings onto a stranger I heard on a podcast. But Sam did ask a pertinent question the answer to which seems to be elusive: how did a problem that affects 1% of the American population start sucking up so much oxygen from the heterodox intellectual room? I don't want to minimize the pain and suffering of people with gender dysphoria and their families - it's very real for therm. But if a Martian landed here and spent a month immersed in online spaces occupied by very intelligent people, the Martian would swear that 25-30 percent of the population was trans. There's got to be a more productive use of all this brain power.
Dearest Meghan,
Sorry for going off-topic but there''s no open thread for us folks with XY chromosomes.
I would love to hear your thoughts on American Fiction, the new(ish) movie satirizing the publishing industry and its DEI obsession. I'm particularly interested in the accuracy of the caricature of earnest white liberal publishing execs.
First?
"If the wife and mother thing doesn't work out for you."
I laughed out loud.
I read the Gould piece just once last week and then listened to too much commentary on it...and I may be off base because I haven't read much of her other work.
But maybe she's actually admitting that her marriage problems are what she's introduced specifically as the female partner? That we live in a time where it's easily justifiable to leave a man because he's useless or cruel. She noted all the books, memoirs, etc she was reading about divorce.
In this case she was the shitty and ultimately couldn't justify herself. It's not her husband's fault she couldn't be more ambitious. She put herself in that avenue and then justified her career sidelining because she had to mother. But also admitted to just being lazy.
I dunno, I just finished Perfect Madness which somehow came out almost 20 years ago. Women have been justifying men not doing comparatively enough when it comes to home and kids for a long time, but again Gould admits she wouldn't let him do certain things or resented his involvement. He could argue with her, sure, but she chose to put herself in the submissive position, not "patriarchy."
Women can stand equivalent to their male spouses, but it's a lot of work. I have to wonder if Gould is pointing to that an acknowledgement of that.
I mean, otherwise the essay wasn't an acknowledgement of much of anything!
I don't know how active Julia Galef has been since publishing "The Scout Mindset," but she'd be a good rationalist guest. https://juliagalef.com/
I was put off by Emily Gould's piece. While it may seem "brave" to share this piece with the general public, it seems more like a lack of courage to internalize and reflect on her struggles with money, drink, bipolar disease, and marriage, etc. and instead write a piece that seems embarrassing. I feel sad for her because she seems so self-absorbed, and she can't seem to manage her ego and... there is a child involved. It seems she needs good friends or family members to tell her to get her shit together-- and to consider divorce in her apparent emotional state just seems ill advised. And the admission that she does not want to work hard....OK, but then what are you going to do- depend on husband to work, who you then resent because he works?? I hope she finds something meaningful in her life that takes focus off herself, and she gets the mood stabilizers she needs for her bipolar.
1. I read The Cut article after listening to the podcast (very entertaining) and liked the essay much more than I expected. I hadn’t realized it was like a long-form book review about memoirs on divorce with the author’s own weird experience tied in.
2. What I found most disturbing was the narrator’s financial irresponsibility. She has apparently never had a regular income but never opens a bill. Hmmm. And yet in the end they will have a three bedroom apartment in Brooklyn and I doubt they live next to JFK.
3. Agree with Meghan that when literature tells the truth it’s not necessarily beautiful. Not all narrators or main characters are appealing. “Tropic of Cancer” and “Madame Bovary” come to mind.
For merch: Sarah? Hate her!
Not only is there a tradition of this kind of essay, it seems to be having another moment now. Leslie Jamison just published, "The birth of my daughter. The death of my marriage." I agree with Sarah. It starts to feel like kale chips. Am I wrong to wish for some acquired worldliness and wisdom after reading all this? So Emily doesn't blame the patriarchy. Nor should she. And yes, writers should not marry writers! Nora Ephron's book was much better because of the perspective she'd gained, (and her incredible sense of humor), as Meghan noted.