I have a theory on this! I think everyone allow themselves a shoebox full of porn. Dirty books, dirty magazines. DVD’s, photos--help yourself to as much porn as you can fit inside that shoebox under your bed--no cheating and throwing in a hard drive though. That’s all we had when I was growing up back in the 90’s, and we all survived. Porn in and of itself is not bad, but having an unlimited, never-ending supply of whatever porn you want, whenever you want it can be sexually stunting in the ways that other commenters have described. It destroys imagination and inhibits the ability to roll with a real life situation with a partner that doesn’t go exactly as planned. Practice making due with whatever you can get your hands on (no pun intended) like we did in the olden days.
Jul 21, 2022·edited Jul 21, 2022Liked by Meghan Daum & Sarah Haider
Wow! I had never considered that most men had an enormous handicap in sexual satisfaction - that they need porn to come! Another reason to feel bad for men.
Hi Meghan and Sarah! I also subscribe to The Unspeakable. This is the first podcast I have listened to which you do jointly. (Although, I did listen to you Sarah on an episode of The Unspeakable, which I really enjoyed.)
I have a few points on this topic. I would certainly love to be interviewed for a follow up episode! But, you may only want someone either more experienced in the podcast world, or some specifically educated on this topic. I do offer my own take which I will explain below.
I probably was more exposed to pornography at a younger age then others of my generation as I worked for my father in a small drug store that sold X-rated magazines. (Which I subsequently stole on occasion). Beginning in my late teens, I would regularly rent x-rated films (which may be tame by today's standards). Then like everyone else with access to free online pornography, I would view content in this manner for a while.
At this point - I am 55 - I rarely watch pornography. Rather, I use my imagination and/or prior sexual experiences as a way of - how do I put this gently - indulging myself.
Throughout my adult life, I have been in a mixture of relationships - serious and casual. Plus, stretches of being solo. I certainly think pornography can distract someone from the "real thing." Plus, it can be awkward when you try to apply what you have seen to another real live human.
However.... the real challenge to healthy relationships is much greater than pornography. And that is the beauty standards that exist throughout society and which are constantly reinforced. I have never judged a person - well maybe slightly - on their sexual performance. But, I constantly judge the opposite sex on their appearance. This behavior lends itself to making poor relationship choices and often loneliness. And, yet it is so hard wired in most men that is it perceived to be impossible to escape. I guess someone can undertake therapy to work on this behavior.
This to me is the real problem - Judging women by a beauty standard that is very difficult to attain . Especially as we age. The problem is far less about whether a partner is willing to engage in unusual sex acts which have been viewed on our phones. This issue is compounded by the fact that judging others by their appearance is rarely condemned. So, most do not view this as a problem.
I look forward to hearing from you regarding my take.
Jul 19, 2022·edited Jul 20, 2022Liked by Meghan Daum & Sarah Haider
I nominate Rob Henderson as the person to interview on porn.
On a personal note: I started when I was maybe 13 or so (now in my mid 30s) almost every day, sometimes multiple times per day. The impact on my sex life has been very negative, but not as bad as some nightmare scenarios.
Content warning: TMI
The Bad:
* I find 80-90% of women physically unattractive. That is, I would not have sex with them if it was handed to me. In fact, there have been several situations like this where I turned them down. There have been other situations where I kind of suffered through it.
* My porn use has desensitized my penis. During normal sex, I feel almost nothing.
* I can still get an erection and can orgasm during sex, however only under certain circumstances. (Fortunately, its not some ornate fetish, just a little more complex than "normal".)
The good:
* In order to be attractive to the women I find attractive, I maintain a ridiculous level of physical fitness. Easily in the top 1%. While I'm not a GQ model (theres more to that than just fitness), I'm in the ballpark of women that I find attractive, so I'm not doomed to a lifetime of porn use. At least, this is what I tell myself so I can sleep at night.
* In an effort to get women to stick around, I've gotten very good at pleasing them.
* If I found a committed partner, I think I would be able to kick the habit and return to some semblance of "normal".
* I am mostly immune to fetish creep that I suspect many men experience. I still consider porn with multiple men to be mostly gross.
The ugly:
* I want to stop completely, but that is infeasible unless I have a committed partner who is willing/available to replace it. In practice, this is very difficult to accommodate. In the early stages of a relationship, people are available on the weekends, but waiting for 5-6 days is not a test of will I can pass. My relative difficulty in achieving orgasm means that it is often difficult for the relationship to get further than the initial stages.
In all, I view porn as bad, but not as bad as some other things. E.g. Dating apps and OnlyFans are way worse. Porn has less of a negative sum dynamic between produces and consumers. Porn stars aren't trying to manipulate me, and they aren't actively making men/women actively hate each other.
Wow, This is a great episode. I still have 5 minutes remaining to listen but I totally needed to comment right now. Regarding "hot" bad guys, I will say it and hope it never hits me back: MBS, the Saudi prince, is kinda hot. Yes, middle eastern men are "my type" (and this is why I have wokish blond with blue eyes tall boyfriend, ugh...).
I am so glad that someone finally made the comparison of sex surgical transition with plastic surgery. For some reasons, I am never taken seriously about anything but I have seriously considered breast implants for some years, in my early career. I am very androgynous, barely a waist, flat chest and shoulders larger than my butt, plus quite thin. Been called a boy every time I would cut my hair short. My father had a very unhealthy relationship with sex (and no respect for women, and high usage of porn and alcohol) and he told me early on to "grow some boobs". That and catching him watching porn started me off on a very bad track, sex-wise. I never felt like a real woman, whatever it may mean, and was scared of sex and intimacy for a long time (and maybe I still am).
At some point, I was so convinced that every bad thing, depressed moment, self-hating phase was due to my flat chest. When I would talk about it, I would really use the narrative that I would do it for myself, to feel pretty in my own skin, to finally "be" a woman. At some point after this, I ditched every outside pressure on my looks and expectations that people could have towards me. Now, I look a bit like a hippie, I would definitely be seen as on the far left (definitely not a Fox News reporter, even if I have great arms, they are covered in tattoos). Never wearing makeup, fancy clothes or feminine shoes. And strangely, this flat chest stopped obsessing me a while back. It may also coincide with my disconnection with society around me and my love for nature and animals.
My opinion on porn is very negative (as for sugar, thanks also talking about that) and I am convinced that its frequent usage does the opposite of relieving pressure, I think it represses even more some fantasies inside certain people, validating them in their "needs" and some predatorial behaviours.
I have been with a man with a porn high consumption (he said he was not addicted, I say isch...), and he was open about it. He was somewhat damaged by it because he was very sensitive and emotional and was unable to even get an erection if he did not feel loved or respected, and the pressure hurt him badly on a relational point of view. He could not deliver anything close to what he was seeing on the screen, even if he had everything alike. He was also contradictorily living some kind of fantasy that he needed sex several times a week, everyday even, and that it was just the way he was built (a basic human need - like having a car and wearing fancy shoes). I called bullshit on that. Every human with a tiny hint of good will and help can fight addictions, whichever they are (sex, porn, sugar, exercise, drugs, gaming, and all of them, unless it's an illness). Some people need more help and time, but it's all doable.
To conclude, I have denied being a feminist for a long time because I could not believe that selling or showing our intimacy could be empowering in any way, and it felt more like a very intense call for attention and some form of self abuse (or a call for others to abuse). Some women probably enjoy it, but I don't understand any part of that. That was long. Cheers.
I didn’t realize this was such a big issue and it doesn’t really apply to me at the moment, but I am worried about my kids. When these men who have been negatively affected raise their children, is there anything they can do to help their young boys avoid the same fate? Seems like an important parenting question and maybe some of these men have some insights.
I had a phd and have an academic position and am a first generation college student. Holy crap, I am an exception. My friends who try to relate might have grandparents without grad degrees but that’s it.
Not being able to think of conservative intellectuals was a weird part. George Will, Ross Douthat and David Brooks are all very famous. Tyler Cowen and Glenn Loury are getting there. Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Niall Ferguson are pretty well known. And while academia is dominated by liberals there are a lot of conservative think tanks. Jonah Goldberg has an AEI scholar on his podcast every week to talk about political history or global trade or China, etc.
I have a theory on this! I think everyone allow themselves a shoebox full of porn. Dirty books, dirty magazines. DVD’s, photos--help yourself to as much porn as you can fit inside that shoebox under your bed--no cheating and throwing in a hard drive though. That’s all we had when I was growing up back in the 90’s, and we all survived. Porn in and of itself is not bad, but having an unlimited, never-ending supply of whatever porn you want, whenever you want it can be sexually stunting in the ways that other commenters have described. It destroys imagination and inhibits the ability to roll with a real life situation with a partner that doesn’t go exactly as planned. Practice making due with whatever you can get your hands on (no pun intended) like we did in the olden days.
Wow! I had never considered that most men had an enormous handicap in sexual satisfaction - that they need porn to come! Another reason to feel bad for men.
Hi Meghan and Sarah! I also subscribe to The Unspeakable. This is the first podcast I have listened to which you do jointly. (Although, I did listen to you Sarah on an episode of The Unspeakable, which I really enjoyed.)
I have a few points on this topic. I would certainly love to be interviewed for a follow up episode! But, you may only want someone either more experienced in the podcast world, or some specifically educated on this topic. I do offer my own take which I will explain below.
I probably was more exposed to pornography at a younger age then others of my generation as I worked for my father in a small drug store that sold X-rated magazines. (Which I subsequently stole on occasion). Beginning in my late teens, I would regularly rent x-rated films (which may be tame by today's standards). Then like everyone else with access to free online pornography, I would view content in this manner for a while.
At this point - I am 55 - I rarely watch pornography. Rather, I use my imagination and/or prior sexual experiences as a way of - how do I put this gently - indulging myself.
Throughout my adult life, I have been in a mixture of relationships - serious and casual. Plus, stretches of being solo. I certainly think pornography can distract someone from the "real thing." Plus, it can be awkward when you try to apply what you have seen to another real live human.
However.... the real challenge to healthy relationships is much greater than pornography. And that is the beauty standards that exist throughout society and which are constantly reinforced. I have never judged a person - well maybe slightly - on their sexual performance. But, I constantly judge the opposite sex on their appearance. This behavior lends itself to making poor relationship choices and often loneliness. And, yet it is so hard wired in most men that is it perceived to be impossible to escape. I guess someone can undertake therapy to work on this behavior.
This to me is the real problem - Judging women by a beauty standard that is very difficult to attain . Especially as we age. The problem is far less about whether a partner is willing to engage in unusual sex acts which have been viewed on our phones. This issue is compounded by the fact that judging others by their appearance is rarely condemned. So, most do not view this as a problem.
I look forward to hearing from you regarding my take.
Thanks!
I nominate Rob Henderson as the person to interview on porn.
On a personal note: I started when I was maybe 13 or so (now in my mid 30s) almost every day, sometimes multiple times per day. The impact on my sex life has been very negative, but not as bad as some nightmare scenarios.
Content warning: TMI
The Bad:
* I find 80-90% of women physically unattractive. That is, I would not have sex with them if it was handed to me. In fact, there have been several situations like this where I turned them down. There have been other situations where I kind of suffered through it.
* My porn use has desensitized my penis. During normal sex, I feel almost nothing.
* I can still get an erection and can orgasm during sex, however only under certain circumstances. (Fortunately, its not some ornate fetish, just a little more complex than "normal".)
The good:
* In order to be attractive to the women I find attractive, I maintain a ridiculous level of physical fitness. Easily in the top 1%. While I'm not a GQ model (theres more to that than just fitness), I'm in the ballpark of women that I find attractive, so I'm not doomed to a lifetime of porn use. At least, this is what I tell myself so I can sleep at night.
* In an effort to get women to stick around, I've gotten very good at pleasing them.
* If I found a committed partner, I think I would be able to kick the habit and return to some semblance of "normal".
* I am mostly immune to fetish creep that I suspect many men experience. I still consider porn with multiple men to be mostly gross.
The ugly:
* I want to stop completely, but that is infeasible unless I have a committed partner who is willing/available to replace it. In practice, this is very difficult to accommodate. In the early stages of a relationship, people are available on the weekends, but waiting for 5-6 days is not a test of will I can pass. My relative difficulty in achieving orgasm means that it is often difficult for the relationship to get further than the initial stages.
In all, I view porn as bad, but not as bad as some other things. E.g. Dating apps and OnlyFans are way worse. Porn has less of a negative sum dynamic between produces and consumers. Porn stars aren't trying to manipulate me, and they aren't actively making men/women actively hate each other.
Wow, This is a great episode. I still have 5 minutes remaining to listen but I totally needed to comment right now. Regarding "hot" bad guys, I will say it and hope it never hits me back: MBS, the Saudi prince, is kinda hot. Yes, middle eastern men are "my type" (and this is why I have wokish blond with blue eyes tall boyfriend, ugh...).
I am so glad that someone finally made the comparison of sex surgical transition with plastic surgery. For some reasons, I am never taken seriously about anything but I have seriously considered breast implants for some years, in my early career. I am very androgynous, barely a waist, flat chest and shoulders larger than my butt, plus quite thin. Been called a boy every time I would cut my hair short. My father had a very unhealthy relationship with sex (and no respect for women, and high usage of porn and alcohol) and he told me early on to "grow some boobs". That and catching him watching porn started me off on a very bad track, sex-wise. I never felt like a real woman, whatever it may mean, and was scared of sex and intimacy for a long time (and maybe I still am).
At some point, I was so convinced that every bad thing, depressed moment, self-hating phase was due to my flat chest. When I would talk about it, I would really use the narrative that I would do it for myself, to feel pretty in my own skin, to finally "be" a woman. At some point after this, I ditched every outside pressure on my looks and expectations that people could have towards me. Now, I look a bit like a hippie, I would definitely be seen as on the far left (definitely not a Fox News reporter, even if I have great arms, they are covered in tattoos). Never wearing makeup, fancy clothes or feminine shoes. And strangely, this flat chest stopped obsessing me a while back. It may also coincide with my disconnection with society around me and my love for nature and animals.
My opinion on porn is very negative (as for sugar, thanks also talking about that) and I am convinced that its frequent usage does the opposite of relieving pressure, I think it represses even more some fantasies inside certain people, validating them in their "needs" and some predatorial behaviours.
I have been with a man with a porn high consumption (he said he was not addicted, I say isch...), and he was open about it. He was somewhat damaged by it because he was very sensitive and emotional and was unable to even get an erection if he did not feel loved or respected, and the pressure hurt him badly on a relational point of view. He could not deliver anything close to what he was seeing on the screen, even if he had everything alike. He was also contradictorily living some kind of fantasy that he needed sex several times a week, everyday even, and that it was just the way he was built (a basic human need - like having a car and wearing fancy shoes). I called bullshit on that. Every human with a tiny hint of good will and help can fight addictions, whichever they are (sex, porn, sugar, exercise, drugs, gaming, and all of them, unless it's an illness). Some people need more help and time, but it's all doable.
To conclude, I have denied being a feminist for a long time because I could not believe that selling or showing our intimacy could be empowering in any way, and it felt more like a very intense call for attention and some form of self abuse (or a call for others to abuse). Some women probably enjoy it, but I don't understand any part of that. That was long. Cheers.
I didn’t realize this was such a big issue and it doesn’t really apply to me at the moment, but I am worried about my kids. When these men who have been negatively affected raise their children, is there anything they can do to help their young boys avoid the same fate? Seems like an important parenting question and maybe some of these men have some insights.
I had a phd and have an academic position and am a first generation college student. Holy crap, I am an exception. My friends who try to relate might have grandparents without grad degrees but that’s it.
Not being able to think of conservative intellectuals was a weird part. George Will, Ross Douthat and David Brooks are all very famous. Tyler Cowen and Glenn Loury are getting there. Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Niall Ferguson are pretty well known. And while academia is dominated by liberals there are a lot of conservative think tanks. Jonah Goldberg has an AEI scholar on his podcast every week to talk about political history or global trade or China, etc.